A: Well, if it was back then, then it was because you got kicked out of KIPP if your grades were not up to par. It was the grades that helped KIPP get their funding, right? So if you're someone who had behavioral issues . . . like half of my class that was with me in fifth grade didn't make it to sixth grade. In 5th grade were two classes, and in 6th grade we were one. So everyone got put out who had behavioral issues or who made it hard for KIPP to do their job. By what time we got to seventh grade we were back to two classes again – they brought students from IS 166 where Randall was from. We had the smart class and the class that clearly wasn't so smart.
So it wasn't like KIPP took geniuses and tried to pass them through, but if you had behavioral issues, you are definitely put out of KIPP.
I: So one thing that KIPP likes to talk about or brag about is there very low suspension rate. So if they're not suspending kids or expelling kids, how did these kids end up out of school if they didn’t want them there?
A: Because you had in-school suspension. And that must be what they’re not reporting. I was on in-school suspension almost every day, but also, I have the top grades in my class, right? So you weren't going to put me out.
Yeah, KIPP never suspended anyone—everybody just got put on in-school suspension, which they called administrative punishment.
I: So, when Mr. Levin heard Mr. Randall make the inappropriate remarks that you talked about, and he react?
A: He would just maybe walk away. It's almost like it was a good old boys club. And also Mr. Randall wasn't crazy, he wouldn't say ‘I want to fuck you’ in front of Mr. Levin, right? But he would make comments about our bodies for the bodies of our mothers, you know, like ‘I can understand how grown men would be attracted to you’. He would say those types of things, but you also have to remember, and I don't know, I feel conflicted about saying this, Levin was about 25 or 26 at this time.
I: Well, let's see, he was fresh out of Yale and Teach for America, and he and Feinberg started KIPP in 1994, so yeah.
A: So he was about 25 at the time—and this was in the 90s. This is what Levin said, and I hear him, but it doesn’t make it any more right. Yeah, he was 25 and it was the 90s, this was part of the times, so you didn’t say anything, but you [Levin] was a mandated reporter who had a duty to protect—and didn’t.
I: Yeah. Yes. Now, you used the the phrase ‘weird, twisted things’ when you were talking earlier, what do you mean by ‘weird twisted things’?
A: Can you give me more context about what I was talking about because I cannot—I remember saying it but I don't remember what I was talking about?
I: You were talking about the mental and emotional abuse of students and things that happened to students while they were at KIPP. And the phrase you used was ‘weird and twisted things.’
A: So just imagine that—we’re a bunch of young black kids and like oner half of us come from homes where our parents, uncle or aunt are crackheads, right? So just imagine the trauma of coming in on Halloween and you’re dressed as a ghost and Mr. Randall is dressed as a crackhead. And no one said anything about it. Or imagine being treated vastly different because you are dark skinned.
We had one girl named ______, and she was treated terribly. Very dark, very much African features. _______ accidentally left her violin on the bus. Randall embarrassed the fuck out of her, not in front of the whole class, but in front of the whole school every chance he got. And ______was very poor—made her pay back, I think, five or ten dollars at a time until she graduated. And made it known that she was poor, pathetic, because she couldn’t pay back—like he made her feel terrible.
It was known, and in the letter I sent you from Levin [https://www.kipp.org/news/a-letter-from-dave-levin-to-kipp-alumni/], he references the fact that colorism was a thing and apologized for it. And it was. Randall definitely did not like dark skinned and unattractive females at all, and he treated them differently. But I think that everyone treated them differently. The white teachers treated them differently.
We have another student by the name of ________ ________ who ended up getting put out of KIPP. He was treated terribly. Like the white teachers were not nice. I don't think they were nice to me either, but I was smart, so I got away with a little bit more.
I: Your teachers, what were they like, white, black, old, young?
A:They were all young with the exception of Randall and Myers. And mostly white. And they were terrible, because I could not relate to the student body that they were teaching. And I remember them telling me that I couldn't get into ________ [private high school that Kayla would graduate from]. And I did. I remember them, always having this narrative about me, that I would get pregnant when I was young, and drop out of high school, and I was bad, and that didn’t happen. And I got into ________.
One interesting thing about KIPP teachers, if you notice, after all this sexual assault stuff started to hit the fan, either people started getting promoted outside of principal by being given really high-paying jobs or they got removed from KIPP Academy. So they either got really high-paying jobs outside of Kipp Academy, like at the KIPP Foundation or at Corporate or whatever, or they started getting consulting gigs. When things started going awry, there was a lot of movement in KIPP, a lot of promotions.
I: So Randall became an organizer of other orchestras at other KIPP schools around the country, right?
A: Yeah.
I: So he got to travel around the country, and girls all over were exposed to his behavior?
A: Yep. But I don’t know what he actually did, I can’t speak to that, but I know that he shouldn't of been exposed to a larger pool of students.
I: Right. It was sort of like he was rewarded in some way like these other teachers at the school who possibly knew what had occurred?
A: Right.
I: Okay. When you think about KIPP, what do you think about?
A: Um, I think of two things. One, I honestly think that KIPP saved my life. I have a deep appreciation for KIPP for setting me on a trajectory that I needed. I honestly feel that way. Um, on the other hand, KIPP was a very traumatizing experience.
I: On the sexual abuse angle, of course, but were there otherwise that it was traumatizing?
A: Those white teachers just were not nice. Not all of them, but I just did not have a good experience with the white teachers at KIPP.
I: And they were mostly white?
A: Yeah.
I: Did you have any black teachers?
A: Ms. Bernard. Ms. Bernard was like an angel. We loved Ms. Bernard.
I: What did she teach?
A: Language arts. she was awesome.
I: But the rest of the more white, young, essentially inexperienced?
A: Yeah.
I: And, uh, not nice?
A: No.
I: Are there other ways that it was traumatizing?
A: It was mostly just Randall, and Levin’s complacency in allowing Randall to do whatever he wanted. That’s what it was for me. So not was I not protected at home, but I spent all this time at KIPP, too, it was a fucked up situation there, too.
I: After high school, did you go to college?
A: I did. I went to college in ________.
I: A a lot of people do that. Did you feel like your dropping out was related to your experiences, your trauma, at KIPP?
A: I think emotionally I was just spent. I went to KIPP and had a lot of school, and I went to _______ and had a lot of school. I needed a fucking break. I was tired. That’s the best way that I could put it, I was tired and had no support, no mentor, I just gave up.
I: What should parents know about KIPP before they enroll their kids there—that KIPP doesn’t tell them?
A: Well, remember that no one knew anything about KIPP. KIPP was brand new. We we were among the first students of KIPP. Have you ever heard of the KIPP Commitment to Excellence form?
I: Yes, it’s sometimes referred to as a contract, right?
A: Yes, a contract. And it said every day we’re going to be on time, and be there from 7:15 until 5. And we commit to Saturdays. And we commit to summers. We commit to behaving. We commit to trusting KIPP teachers to kind of discipline us. It was interesting.
I: So all those things parents know ahead of time right?
A: Yeah. But parents don't know that Levin and especially Mr. Waxman would yell at us to the point that they were red and purple, and throw shit at us, scream at us, and belittle us, and tell us we’re going to grow up and be nothing—especially if we didn't go to college. That was part of the playbook, but not in the contract—the part that was absurd, the weird shit that was going on. And we were really abused. I don't think people really understand what it's like to have a teacher in your face like a jail warden yelling at you and cussing at you and throwing desks across the room. Like they had some real anger issues. If someone did that, to my child, they were going to jail.
I would never, ever—but our parents allowed it. Some parents would come to the school. I think Levin got punched in the face, I think Bernard got punched in the face. It happened a couple of times, apparently would say ‘not my kid, don’t even think about it.’
But a lot of us, especially they Hispanic children, for those of us who didn't live with our parents, who lived with grandparents or whatever, nobody was going to come to school and say shit because they were just happy that we were at KIPP most of the time.
I: I have heard similar stories from others. Do you remember what the offense that would cause such anger among KIPP teachers?
A: We were probably like talking.
I: Any offense was a large offense, right?
A: Any offense was a large offense—anytime you did not listen, fall in line, like you cannot beat children. But that’s why I have discipline now. I don’t know if it makes me a better parent or worse parent, because my kids are always, like, what the fuck, we can never make you happy. And I’m like ‘why can't you just do this correctly?’ And I really have to check myself. It’s like, no that’s not cool—I remember being their age and being treated like that, and that wasn’t good. But I also have an immense amount of self-control, um, I don’t know—I struggle with it when it comes to parenting.
